tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post1387643150827906554..comments2023-11-07T06:20:12.181-08:00Comments on Tolkien: Medieval and Modern: Free Will and Human Nature"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"http://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-29720154476507040612014-06-06T11:03:04.743-07:002014-06-06T11:03:04.743-07:00I feel the same way as RLFB because everything sho...I feel the same way as RLFB because everything should relate to what we understand of Christian thought. The fall is when humans shows that they had free will and could make a mistake against what God asks. Why then, is it repeated? After the fall, humans are fallible, they make mistakes, and they choose the wrong path. Then it is our responsibility to ask for forgiveness for our sins. Tolkien’s point is that we cannot be inherently good with respect to free will ever since the fall. We were granted free will and as such make choices against God, otherwise it wouldn’t really be free will.<br /><br />History repeats itself because existence is a struggle between good and evil. There will always (since the fall of Melkor and then the fall of the children of Illuvatar) be evil, and it is the responsibility of the good to fight against that. Even once good prevails and destroys the ring in this case, there is still evil, and there will always be evil and struggle (like Saruman taking over the Shire). But that is not a statement on free will, that is a statement on the existence and struggles of intelligent beings.David J. Goldfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00522360495558096684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-85696493309195216812014-06-02T18:23:59.856-07:002014-06-02T18:23:59.856-07:00 It certainly does seem like men are destined to ... It certainly does seem like men are destined to continue to repeat their same mistakes over and over again, but I’m not entirely convinced this is fully due to a lack of free will. I agree with Alex’s comment, especially the idea that one person can break the pattern and change the way humanity reacts to a situation. When I think of “human nature”, I think of what a gut-reaction might be for the average person. I don’t think that reaction is necessarily something fully innate to humans though- I think society and the context of an event are important to determining how someone reacts to a situation. The particular situation that the Númenoreans were in must have had an effect on the way the events took place, so even with complete free will the outcome of the Fall may not have changed. To me, man’s free will may even play a role in determining a societal and contextual environment, which would in turn determine the reactions of the people within that environment. In that sense, maybe the consequences of the past decisions of a people are what lock them into a certain outcome? But it would still be their original actions that put them in that situation. The Men of Numenor certainly were free to do as they liked before these events occurred. -S. RajanAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03413671373862946292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-6898451284470949522014-05-11T15:10:35.321-07:002014-05-11T15:10:35.321-07:00Dear EF,
First off, I read but did not finish a co...Dear EF,<br />First off, I read but did not finish a comment on this post before my trip and it’s a pity its now so late!<br /><br />I think you’re quite right to pick up on the pattern of building conflict, resistance, and loss in Tolkien’s histories. Regarding these patterns, your question whether free will is undermined by an inevitability of failure and defeat is a difficult one. If we cannot find positive evidence for free will, is there real evidence in the text (outside the pattern) that the Numenoreans’ will were externally-constrained? Unlike the Noldor’s doomed war for the Silmarils, is it significant that the Numenoreans never had a doom laid upon them nor was their doom prophesied?<br /><br />Secondly, Tolkien’s tales of defeat seem to resonate with classic tragedy in that the heroes bring their downfall upon themselves. Would the sorrow and loss of these repeated failures be so poignant if they were constrained to fall?<br />~RobertUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16340002157728895236noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-62827938748557586982014-05-10T09:46:27.287-07:002014-05-10T09:46:27.287-07:00Tolkien would say this is the definition of the Fa...Tolkien would say this is the definition of the Fall: although human beings were created with free will, it is fallen, and we are now ultimately incapable of choosing the good without grace. RLFB"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-85396887472685721292014-05-08T15:48:20.730-07:002014-05-08T15:48:20.730-07:00I’m really glad you brought this up! It seems that...I’m really glad you brought this up! It seems that ‘human nature’ has been taken for granted by all of us (definitely by me, according to my first reactions to the readings) but I think you’re right in pointing out the difficulties of reconciling a seemingly inevitable ‘nature’ with free will. <br /><br />Supposedly, Iluvatar gave humans a ‘nature’ distinct from that he gave to the First Born. As you’ve put nicely in your post, humans were gifted or endowed with an internal tendency or desire to ‘improve one’s lot, to strive for something, to challenge authority’, etc. In other words, to dabble in or toe the line of evil, to act in ways that might diverge from the placid goodness of the elves. That being said, free will seems to be the ability to push back against this innate impulse. This is pretty straight forward; what really confuses me is the point you made about history being cyclical, that the mistakes of the Numenoreans are inevitable and unavoidable. I don’t have a strong response to this, just some scattered reflections. The elves, despite their more amenable natures, also make the same mistakes repeatedly; they are likewise involved in scraps against Melkor and Sauron, and are occasionally tempted by ‘evil’ powers. Their will (or Elvish nature) is a whole other animal than man’s, yet they seem stuck in the same cycle. Is Iluvatar’s song stuck on repeat? Is this self-destructive ‘re-set’ really inevitable, and if not, is it still desirable? -mcs<br />"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-38159730436912788372014-05-07T16:21:04.795-07:002014-05-07T16:21:04.795-07:00Of course there are patterns in human behavior; hu...Of course there are patterns in human behavior; humans are not completely different from one another. But I think it would be a mistake to claim that this fact negates the idea of free will, for two reasons. The first is that mistakes can be corrected and errors identified. To draw an analogy to the history of science, consider the Greeks. They made wonderful strides in geometry and not only proved the Earth is round but accurately calculated its diameter, but when confronted with the movement of the heavenly bodies or the fundamental substances that make up all things, they lapsed into assumption and fallacy. Their mistakes were later rectified, but Copernicus and Galileo made mistakes of their own (Galileo insisted in perfectly circular orbits despite Kepler having proved they were not much earlier). Their errors were identified but others were made, and so on it continues. Our view of the universe is not perfect, but it is better. I believe the same can happen with strength of character and moral fiber. The second reason is that it only takes one person to break the pattern, and anyone can be that person. Again turning to science, many people could have discovered calculus or gravity or evolution or genetics, but one person (or a handful of people) actually did, and those discoveries changed the course of history. Similarly, one person can convince others to resist Evil (we might even say that this one person “redeems” the others; I wonder if that idea has been explored anywhere?).Alex Zavolukhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07218002221816671009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-75830922599415326122014-05-07T11:55:04.389-07:002014-05-07T11:55:04.389-07:00I agree with you. It seems that mankind has the a... I agree with you. It seems that mankind has the ability to make free choices, but they seem to fit patterns within the music itself. As the early men fell and allied with Morgoth against the Valar, so did the Númenorians fall, albeit eventually, in both cases with a select few exceptions. It seems that they fell, in both cases, due to a lack of understanding and acceptance of how the Valar expected them to behave. In the case of the earlier transgression, it mentions that almost all the men fought for Morgoth. That said, it seems that the Valar never step into Middle-earth to correct any action until it is of the most dire need. As a result, I can only wonder how aware the men were of the Valar and their positions. The second time, when Númenor fell, it seems that the men were told (thousands of years in the past) “Don't go past here.” While we talked about the desire to “push the big red button” in class, I can't help but feel that there is more at work here. Even the kings of Númenor never met the Valar in person and seemed to have little contact besides the elves who would would come out every so often to bring gifts. It seems that the Valar will be content to watch a completely deteriorating state (even one they loved) move ever closer to the transgression without even sending a message. As a result, I wonder that it took so long for Númenor to fall, given a distinct lack of correction. Although, I suppose it could be argued that the pattern guaranteed some faithful.<br /><br />-JSH"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.com