tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post1984804411719622764..comments2023-11-07T06:20:12.181-08:00Comments on Tolkien: Medieval and Modern: Ring-Lord Gandalf"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"http://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-57569363105562007562017-06-01T14:53:06.468-07:002017-06-01T14:53:06.468-07:00I think Tolkien may be correct and accurate in say...I think Tolkien may be correct and accurate in saying that Gandalf would be far worse than Sauron had he taken the ring for himself. But what about the reverse? What if Sauron were to become good? Would he be even better than Gandalf then? I tend to think that goodness here lies on a kind of absolute value scale. Someone who is really good would turn into someone who is really bad. Likewise, someone who is only kind of good would turn into someone who is kind of bad. This may be caused by a number of different factors such as someone’s natural disposition or how much free will they actually have power over. Gandalf shows a tremendous amount of strength when Frodo offers him the One Ring to keep but he refuses instantly. He is able to sacrifice personal achievement and power for the greater good. In the same vein, if he turned evil, he may use that same restraint to sacrifice his own selfish power in order to attain the greatest evil. <br /><br />Peter L. (Blog post #4)"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-74196551797013534002017-05-29T15:58:16.918-07:002017-05-29T15:58:16.918-07:00I don’t necessarily agree with the explanations pr...I don’t necessarily agree with the explanations provided so far for Tolkien’s assertion that Gandalf would be worse than Sauron. Namely, Gandalf with ultimate power ruling for good cannot be the reason why he would be worse. I don’t think that Tolkien takes issue with the concept of dictatorships, since Gondor and Rohan, as monarchies, are essentially dictatorships. I see no reason why Gandalf ruling over the world in a manner aimed at promoting peace and prosperity would be any worse than Aragorn ruling over Gondor in a manner aimed at promoting peace and prosperity. It seems more or less as though Tolkien is saying that Gandalf would do something apart from just rule. Gandalf taking away people’s free will could be what Tolkien is referring to, however I don’t understand how taking away people’s ability to do bad things and achieving peace is a bad thing. That is essentially the purpose of laws in society, to discourage people from doing bad things. I think that there is no way that Gandalf could remain good and still be worse for Middle Earth than Sauron. My only conclusion is that the Ring would eventually corrupt him and turn him evil through its use, and that would make him worse than Sauron because he would be evil operating in the guise of good, like a wolf in sheep’s clothing.ABShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11471286405712945153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-49132963387340500002017-05-18T07:34:00.666-07:002017-05-18T07:34:00.666-07:00I think you could also find an explanation for why...I think you could also find an explanation for why Tolkien considers Gandalf a worse Ring-Lord than Sauron by taking a look at the various types of governments that exist in our world. Dictatorship is the fastest and most efficient form of government while democracy is slow and inefficient, filled with redundancies, checks and balances. With a good ruler, dictatorship could theoretically be more beneficial for the governed, yet we overwhelmingly balk at the idea of dictatorship (although that also partially has to do with the fact that essentially all of the dictators in history have ended up oppressive rather than benevolent). However, all dictators, even the most benevolent ones, are subjugating the will of their people as they work towards a vision of a “better” world. That is what Tolkien finds the ultimate evil about rule by the Ring-Lord. What is worse about Gandalf is that in his desire to rule for the good of the peoples of Middle-Earth, he could create an illusion of good and happiness to mask the lack of free will, and with his skill he could make this illusion something easy to succumb to and difficult to resist, for such a system could be unknowingly upheld by the very people it is controlling. Tolkien’s comments in his letter remind me of Vaclav Havel’s political essay “The Power of the Powerless” on post-totalitarian rule. In it, Havel states that ideology provides people “both as victims and pillars of the post-totalitarian system, with the illusion that the system is in harmony with the human order and the order of the universe… Human beings are compelled to live within a lie.” It sounds scarily like rule by Ring-Lord Gandalf. <br />~M.Lee<br />M.Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04105514973612677193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-90657235298938132492017-05-09T11:53:23.729-07:002017-05-09T11:53:23.729-07:00I agree with you that it seemed wierd, but I think...I agree with you that it seemed wierd, but I think what Tolkien was trying to get at is this:<br /><br />Sauron as ring-lord would have been obviously evil. That is, he would have ruled Middle Earth in a way that most of the peoples of Middle Earth would not have liked. He would have limited free will, killed and tortured, and made the world awful to live in.<br /><br />Gandalf would be imposing his will/limiting free will by trying to order the world for good, as you said. Yet absolute power corrupts absolutely. Gandalf as ring-lord would limit free will to force people to work together, to put an end to war, etc. Yet a peaceful, harmonious land, where no one gets to choose how they act and, presumably, any dissenters would be crushed for disturbing Gandalf's imposed peace is not a state that many would want to live in.<br /><br />I agree that it doesn't seem WORSE than Sauron, but I feel that it verges dangerously close, or is even with Sauron's evil as Ring-lord. Either way, there is an imposition on free will (as is Tolkien's definition of evil--or at least a major part of it--as we discussed in class). The way that Gandalf becomes more dangerous than Sauron is that people wouldn't question it. There would be resistance against Sauron, even if it is weak and ineffectual. The danger of Gandalf as Ring-lord is the creation of Huxley's Brave New World--a state where free will is curtailed, but where no one questions it. Few would resist Gandalf the Ring-lord, and would follow his "good" decisions almost blindly, unknowing about their loss of free will. The question is not "who would more destroy Middle Earth?" That is Sauron pretty clearly. But rather, the question should be "is curtailing free will by force and constantly fighting to keep control, as forces of "good" continue to try to fight to free the world, worse than or better than the the forcible loss of free will and widespread acceptance of that loss?" <br /><br />Ring-lord Sauron preserves some good in the world in opposition to him and his evil. Ring-lord Gandalf imposes his will and gets away with it, because what he does he does for "good".Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14771087631776074296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-77353319664940897482017-05-07T18:01:05.317-07:002017-05-07T18:01:05.317-07:00Perhaps it helps to put the question in terms of t...Perhaps it helps to put the question in terms of totalitarianism: those who desire to create utopias inevitably create only hells. Tolkien is meditating on the way in which well-meaning leaders insist that they are tyrants "for your own good." They lie even as they mean well. RLFB"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.com