tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post2765198965038455999..comments2023-11-07T06:20:12.181-08:00Comments on Tolkien: Medieval and Modern: On the Nature of the Ainur"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"http://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-40290909277267050972011-06-04T08:22:50.829-07:002011-06-04T08:22:50.829-07:00Lisa, I think that this is a really interesting re...Lisa, I think that this is a really interesting reflection on our fascination with the Ainur and the way that they fit into a Christian schema. I agree that the complicated Ainur deny us the possibility of classifying them as part of the trinity or as strictly angelic figures. However, while I find many of your arguments for the Ainur as the Church very compelling, there are a few things that I feel complicate that relationship as well.<br /><br />Like Professor Fulton Brown, I also feel that making an analogy with the Church as a body would necessarily encompass all of the peoples of Middle Earth. The Church functions well in this analogy in terms of its unity with Christ, but thinking of the way the Church manifests itself on Earth complicates this relationship for me. Since the Church is not just composed of the ordained, but also all of those who choose to follow Christ and strive to praise him, the metaphor would seem to necessarily require all of the children of Iluvatar, even the "indirect" ones, to be included.<br /><br />Like you pointed out, there doesn't seem to be a perfect parallel anyway, but I think you've done well to draw our attention to yet another possibility.<br /><br />LMLJMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12896040187261928353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-79841591792917333392011-04-27T08:54:54.723-07:002011-04-27T08:54:54.723-07:00The Christo-ecclesiological analogy is very provoc...The Christo-ecclesiological analogy is very provocative. It allows for a relationship that isn’t characterized by the paradox of divine identity (Trinity/Christ) or by a strict hierarchy of being (angels). As you note at the end, it also implies things that are not reflective of Tolkien’s description. While it allows for differentiation within a corporate body - indeed, the Ainur comprehend that part of Ilúvatar of which they are offspring – the Christian ecclesiological idea would (if I understand it correctly) make the individual a possessor of the entire body – a paradox with vast implications. For my own part, I had thought of the Ainur as Greek muses, the divine expression of the arts. After all the Ainur do make music (itself derived from ‘muse’). Perhaps the art of the Ainur seems less concrete (but is it?), but the convention of assigning each muse a specific art comes long after their first literary appearance in any case. The muses are born, moreover, from the mind, their mother being called Mnemosyne/memory. Both have a role in creation: the Ainur sing the music of creation, just as the Muses sing of creation (poetically embodied in Hesiod’s Theogony). As a final note, concerning the possibility of a Christian or indeed any analogy, I suspect that Tolkien can entertain a creative mythology that, in its discursive, theological explication, may be at odds with Christian theology, and yet it is not something that he perceives as significantly conflicting. Creation and conviction do not always go together.<br />JCT"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-8953348499879358772011-04-24T01:17:22.784-07:002011-04-24T01:17:22.784-07:00But doesn't Tolkien say in Letter 131, a.k.a. ...But doesn't Tolkien say in Letter 131, a.k.a. the Preface to the <i>Silmarillion</i>, that "God and the Valar...are revealed. These latter are as we should say <b>angelic powers</b>..." (emphasis mine) ?<br /><br />--Luke Bretscher"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-80675081403859346032011-04-22T17:06:36.007-07:002011-04-22T17:06:36.007-07:00I wonder. I agree that the Ainur do not work as a...I wonder. I agree that the Ainur do not work as angels and most certainly not as a Person (or Persons) of the Trinity, but I have a hard time seeing them as related in quite the same way as Christ and the Church. Rather, I would see the different Peoples of Middle-earth (Elves, Men, Dwarves, Hobbits) as taking on this diversity--which still leaves the Ainur a bit of a mystery. The closest analogue I can think of are the <a href="http://www.upenn.edu/pennpress/book/13822.html" rel="nofollow">"goddesses"</a> or "daughters of God" of medieval literature: Wisdom, Love, Philosophy, and Nature. They are not God as such, but nor are they distinct from God (particularly Wisdom). I'm still not sure where to put Melkor, however.<br /><br />RLFB"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-86855505710949827542011-04-22T14:26:30.032-07:002011-04-22T14:26:30.032-07:00I never thought of that analogy, but it's very...I never thought of that analogy, but it's very interesting. <br /><br />--Luke Bretscher"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.com