tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post2870098880058698578..comments2023-11-07T06:20:12.181-08:00Comments on Tolkien: Medieval and Modern: True Love Alone is Redemptive"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"http://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comBlogger2125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-7513501033317216222017-05-30T10:33:47.732-07:002017-05-30T10:33:47.732-07:00I think using Aquinas here to think about Tolkien&...I think using Aquinas here to think about Tolkien's understanding of love is helpful, but I would double-check on the redemptive nature of Aragorn's love for Arwen: I am pretty sure that Arwen's fading is an artifact of Jackson's, not Tolkien's. Very good point about Faramir's love for Eowyn--that it is for *her* good, not his. It is interesting to reflect on Sam's encounter with Faramir: that Sam recognizes Faramir's character, perhaps as a reflection of his own well-ordered love? RLFB"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-5533259209824019982017-05-24T11:56:13.144-07:002017-05-24T11:56:13.144-07:00Sure, I buy this - something in Tolkien's view...Sure, I buy this - something in Tolkien's views of love (and the impacts that love has upon characters) definitely seems consonant with Aquinas' definition of selfless love. Let me push a bit against what constitutes "salvation," or "redemption." Salvation in our/Aquinas' Christian view of the world is a straightforward enough matter, sure, but what does it mean to be "saved" in Middle Earth? Not everyone gets to go to Valinor, indeed not everyone should! <br /><br />Let me try and summarize what you say is “moral redemption.” Sam loves Frodo selflessly, devotes his entire self towards Frodo’s good, and thus “saves” Frodo from Gollum, Shelob, “or even himself.” So the way Sam saves Frodo is by enabling him to finish his quest. Aragorn’s “heroic love” for Arwen motivates him to defeat Sauron so that Arwen will be … “saved”. But how exactly did Arwen need to be saved? She was, perhaps, morally infallible as an elf, so her “salvation” was simply avoiding an early death? And what exactly is the “greatest good” Aragorn achieves? Is it simply Arwen’s joy? Let me wrestle with this a bit — perhaps the idea is that as an immortal, Arwen was infallible but also joyless, since she could not be with her lover; Aragorn’s participation in the defeat of Sauron enables her to live in true joy. <br /><br />Your final sentence gestures loftily towards “the cause of Middle Earth’s salvation.” But I’m not convinced that we’ve arrived at an agreeable definition of moral salvation from the two examples of “perfect love” that you provided. Frodo seems irreparably damaged after his quest, somehow sundered from the world, despite the fact he’s been saved from early death several times and from Gollum, who perhaps is his own “shadow”. Arwen chooses mortality, and comes close to early death without ever living with her love (had the Ring not been destroyed). What’s the moral redemption they get? Without knowing that, I don’t know how to conceive of “Middle Earth’s salvation.” <br /><br />-Elaine YaoAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03929383832193318224noreply@blogger.com