tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post4044643775534507845..comments2023-11-07T06:20:12.181-08:00Comments on Tolkien: Medieval and Modern: Our Need for Elf-friends"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"http://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-47742717196144131352017-05-29T09:01:56.098-07:002017-05-29T09:01:56.098-07:00I would also like to push back against the idea of...I would also like to push back against the idea of Sam not being an elf friend under the definition provided by Anna. While i think being a writer is a very important part of being an elf friend, i think that the emphasis should be more on the storytelling aspect than necessarily the writing down of stories. It seems to me that in Middle Earth, there is a strong oral storytelling tradition, whether it be through song or otherwise, and while Sam may not have been a main contributor to the Red Book of Westmarch, he certainly would have been passing on his stories to his family and the hobbits he would be interacting with on a daily basis as Mayor. I think that the story itself is more important than the act of writing, because stories can still propagate and live on without being written down by their originator. Tolkien chose writing because it was something he enjoyed and was good at, but I could see a world where Tolkien instead used some other form of storytelling, whether it be song, art, or film to act as an elf friend to humanity.<br />-John Francis<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07361496944036039265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-26297467583426468682014-06-06T20:25:24.622-07:002014-06-06T20:25:24.622-07:00Hey Anna,
I really like your analysis of the elf-f...Hey Anna,<br />I really like your analysis of the elf-friend archetype in the Lord of the Rings et al. I've never thought about how strong a connection these characters have with writing/passing down their stories of Faerie. This makes me wonder exactly what Tolkien is saying with this characterization.<br />The most obvious thing to draw away is that language is VERY important to Tolkien. It's one of the only ways to express our experiences (particularly with the Unknown) in a way the future generations can understand, but it's also very much the lifeblood of history and myth. You could say that Tolkien is an elf-friend not only to his own canon, but also every (other) historical text and language he has translated or analyzed in his role as philologist. By observing the changes in language we can interpret the flow of populations and the stories about them and better understand such foreign, ancient societies.<br />At the same time, Tolkien probably considered language to be inherent to our ability to comprehend our experiences. Consider: what would our thoughts be like without language? Would we be as intelligent, as able to understand the world around us? I would guess that Tolkien would say no. Language is a part of his story from the very beginning of the Ainur, and language is the strongest ability that elf-friends have, which allows them to enter Fairie in the first place.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11374516897759866378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-52772619647199553952014-06-06T12:52:07.119-07:002014-06-06T12:52:07.119-07:00David, I think Sam actually is a storyteller as we...David, I think Sam actually is a storyteller as well, and does contribute to the writing of the Red Book. In the last chapter of Return of the King, when Frodo prepares to leave the Shire to meet up with the rest of the company leaving for the the Grey Havens, Frodo leaves the Red Book with Sam, and said, "the last pages are for you." Sam is the direct heir to Frodo, and he is tasked with carrying out the tasks of being an Elf-friend and the remembrance of the Third Age which is passing. When Sam is upset that Frodo is leaving, Frodo tells him: "You will be the Mayor, of course, as long as you want to be, and the most famous gardener in history; and you will read things out of the Red Book, and keep alive the memory of the age that is gone so that people will remember the Great Danger and so love their beloved land all the more. And that will keep you as busy and as happy as anyone can be, as long as your part of the Story goes on." <br /><br />In other words, I think Sam is as legitimate an Elf-friend as Frodo, though his connection to the Elves may be lesser. When Frodo is gone, Sam will be his heir in the story and share it with others so that it can be remembered. The end of Frodo's part in the Story is the beginning of Sam's, and as we can see, Sam still has many important things to do on Middle Earth. <br /><br />--Jade "Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-57154664583534309512014-04-12T23:18:01.420-07:002014-04-12T23:18:01.420-07:00Anna,
I want to draw closer attention to one of th...Anna,<br />I want to draw closer attention to one of the examples you give of an Elf-friend in LotR—Sam. I don’t think he fits into your proposed definition. Unless I’m mistaken, he does not contribute to the writing of the Red Book, as do Bilbo and Frodo; and, like Smith, he falls short of the mark of interpreting or “using language to relay stories to the world outside of Faery.” Note book I chapter 3: “Sam could never describe in words, nor picture clearly to himself, what he felt or thought that night…’”<br /> <br />But is it fair to say that Sam contributes nothing as far as helping us “catch a glimpse of Faery?” I certainly don’t think so. I would say that while Frodo and Bilbo help relay Faery to later generations within the sub-creation of Middle Earth (i.e. by writing the Red Book), Sam is the type of Elf-friend who helps the readers (us) of this sub-creation directly. In other words, he does not need to possess skills of language because the writing has been done for him as a character by Tolkien—we need only to read the book to see things through Sam’s eyes. The story is perhaps not related to us by Sam, but the experience is. Flieger suggests this when she writes that the question, What do you think of the Elves now, Sam?, “is addressed as much to the reader as to Sam. And Sam tells us how we should respond.” Frodo even predicts this relationship between Sam and audience when he imagines “I want to hear more about Sam, dad. Why didn’t they put in more of his talk, dad? That’s what I like, it makes me laugh” (book IV chapter 8). <br /><br />To Robert/Radegundus—I think Smith can be saved by thinking of him in the same way as Sam. While he may not act as an Elf-friend between the land of Faery and the people of Wootton Major because he does not tell them stories of what he has seen, he is, I think, an Elf-friend between Faery and us, the readers, because we experience Faery through his experiences.<br /><br />--David Jaffe"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-90647595158205701022014-04-10T12:10:16.560-07:002014-04-10T12:10:16.560-07:00-Emma Pauly-Emma Pauly"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-91808682515859670472014-04-10T12:09:56.198-07:002014-04-10T12:09:56.198-07:00Christopher, to me, does not fit completely with t...Christopher, to me, does not fit completely with the established definition of 'elf-friend', but he should be considered one in spirit. He has not himself traversed into Faerie, coaxed these stories from their homes and into our world as his father did, but he has nonetheless completed the act of transmission when his father was no longer around to do so. If we visualize the role of the ‘elf-friend’ as a physical journey with a tangible parcel being transferred, Tolkien fell down by the side of the road after going back and forth down the road many times before. Christopher picked up what his father was unable to carry and further and completed the transfer, having not gone all the way down the road himself but certainly having played an integral role in the transfer of information from Point A to Point B. <br />If we name Frodo ‘elf-friend’ for speaking a few words of Elvish, I would like to think we can call Christopher the same for giving us further insights into the Perilous Realm, regardless of whether or not he fetched them from thence himself. He may not be one in the strictly academic sense of the phrase, but he has labored long and hard and, in my opinion, deserves the respect conferred by the term. <br />"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-53158719746220218122014-04-09T15:33:55.862-07:002014-04-09T15:33:55.862-07:00Dear Anna,
Thanks for your careful analysis of th...Dear Anna,<br /><br />Thanks for your careful analysis of the category and idea of ‘elf-friend.’ I like how you move from your basic view (“their defining characteristics is telling the stories. Therefore, I think that the true meaning of the term elf-friend is one who can travel to Faërie and bring back the stories, and we need elf-friends in order to have any glimpse of the elves and the entire realm.”) and then work this out in a handful of instances (Frodo, Bilbo, Ælfwine, and Smith). In this way, you are not merely revolving the same idea, but pushing and pressing on the theme (with your definition) through several texts.<br /><br />The fruit of this treatment comes out especially with your treatment of Smith. For you don’t fudge or gloss over the idea that Smith may not actually fit very well in this category of ‘elf-friend’ because Smith notably omitted story-telling. (Which is a good insight.)<br /><br />You wrote: “He is not inherently an elf-friend but instead granted temporary access… but he does not use language to relay stories to the world outside of Faery. I think that his partial elf-friend status is shown by this lack of transmission, despite his crafts and songs.” I think you give some good reasons to wonder about whether Smith is properly an elf-friend, whose ‘defining characteristic’ is story-telling and transmitting stories of the hidden Faërie back to us.<br /><br />Or can we save Smith as a full-blooded ‘elf-friend’? (Attention to commentors, I would love to hear further thoughts on this!) <br /><br />A further question arises, for me. Though Flieger (“Footsteps” 184) gives a lovely analysis of the ‘elf-friend’ idea through several figures and texts, she largely passed over the primary list of Elrond! Elrond to Frodo (very end of “Council of Elrond,” pg 271) “Through all the mightly Elf-friends of old, Hador, and Hurin, and Turin [Turambar], and Beren himself were assembled together, your seat should be among them.” All these show up in the Silmarillion. <br /><br />We should ask: What makes Haldor, Hurin, Turin and Beren to be elf-friends? (Is Turin, for instance, really a linking, transmitting, story-telling elf-friend, like Frodo, Bilbo, Ælfwine are?) <br />Do they can fit within the idea of the story-telling, linking and transmitting ‘elf-friend’?<br />Or does Elrond’s idea of the elf-friend cause a problem or introduce tension for our notion of elf-friend?<br /><br />I myself thought I had a good handle on this idea of ‘elf-friend’ before reading your post, Anna, but I congratulate you because you’re making me doubt and re-consider things! I hope further comments can shed light on these questions.<br /><br />Regards,<br />Robert / Radegundus the GreenUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16340002157728895236noreply@blogger.com