tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post4145235777982176557..comments2023-11-07T06:20:12.181-08:00Comments on Tolkien: Medieval and Modern: I thought Heaven was going to be White"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"http://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-23902095996442405532014-06-06T20:01:43.973-07:002014-06-06T20:01:43.973-07:00To continue in the same vein as previous comments,...To continue in the same vein as previous comments, I would also urge against saying that jewels are only for Heaven. If nothing else we should appreciate their beauty as a part of God’s creation. Perhaps the best way to treat them would be like the Teleri treat the jewels the Noldor give them (chapter 5 of the Silmarillion), that is, we should appreciate them for their beauty without giving them any monetary value (or at least not value them because of it). As you pointed out, the jewels themselves never cause problems; it is the people lusting after them and hording them who do that.<br /><br />Having said that, I will add that I very much understand where you are coming from. Growing up as a protestant in Spain (a very catholic country), I also tended to associate jewels and gold with the church showing off its wealth and power. I have visited countless churches and cathedrals where I have seen many gold covered alters and the occasional jewel encrusted reliquary. Although a part of me was attracted to the beauty I saw in these things, a much larger part of me felt almost guilty about that. The church, I thought, should not have spent so much on jewels and gold just to show off, at a time when there were people who were literally starving to death. And even today, doesn't the church realize how many people could be helped with the money from selling just one of its many treasures? After learning in class what jewels represented to the people who created these altars and reliquaries, I feel less critical of them. However, I think that the relation between the church and treasure is still an interesting question. What should the church do with these treasures now that people no longer associate jewels with the same thing? Is it acceptable for the church to spend money on treasure, instead of using to, for example, help hungry people? I do not claim to know the answer to this, and I have no idea what Tolkien might say about it. But I do think that today it is a problem.<br /><br />Elaina WoodAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03983433500476292014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-32365679089070914272014-06-06T17:33:14.238-07:002014-06-06T17:33:14.238-07:00While I, like you, have a sort of instinctive aver...While I, like you, have a sort of instinctive aversion to certain overly-gaudy displays of wealth in a religious setting, over the past couple of years I've started to shift away from that perspective. While I agree that Heaven seems like it would be a place of purity and cleanliness, let us not forget that Creation isn't exactly a white room. The world is a place of diversity and of harmony, and it is by witnessing the many that we can see through them to the One. I don't pretend to know if Heaven will be a white void or a golden city, but either might be expressive of the glory of God.<br /><br />So nothing I said above strikes me as particularly interesting, so I'd like to leave behind a parable I once heard. Two men, for whatever reason, were invited to a great castle. They arrived, and one man took the opportunity to marvel at the castle. He wandered through its gardens and libraries and ate fine foods, all the while in awe of the beauty and splendor around him.<br /><br />The second man, however, did not dwell on the beauty. He walked right past the gardens and the libraries to the throne room, because he realized that the rest was all ornamentation. What made the castle great was the presence of the King - all else existed only to advertise that fact.<br /><br />It is not the jewels themselves which are evil, nor is taking delight in them wrong, but to horde the jewels and to ignore what they exist to signify - therein lies the perversion and the roots of evil.<br /><br />- Daniel BetancourtAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07346160281580598744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-88641879764511989942014-05-27T13:39:11.549-07:002014-05-27T13:39:11.549-07:00I will resist the urge to stick up for the medieva...I will resist the urge to stick up for the medieval relic-builders, but I will note this. The way that you feel about the purity of white (reflecting light, and an unsullied nature) is perhaps the way that people once viewed gold—as reflecting light, and having undergone a significant purifying process. I'm thinking here of psalm verses like “And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver purified in a crucible, like gold refined seven times” (12:6), or the Malachi text so familiar from Handel (“He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness”.) My point is not a quibble over the décor of heaven, but that I think you are actually sharing an instinct with medieval thinkers about “purity” (they were big on white, too)!<br /><br />--Jenna"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-49485267373350734772014-05-23T11:02:37.770-07:002014-05-23T11:02:37.770-07:00Perhaps it might be appropriate to reconsider your...Perhaps it might be appropriate to reconsider your statement that Jewels "are meant for heaven" and shouldn't be treasured on earth, or at least add a degree of nuance to the statement. If, as you say, Jewels in heaven are glorious and Jesus himself is the chief of these jewels, can they really be that bad to treasure appropriately on earth?<br /><br />If, as you say, jewels in heaven are splendid and Jesus himself is a jewel, shouldn't we seek what is beautiful on earth, even if it is not a perfect reflection of the ultimate beauty which might be experienced in heaven? Perhaps it is not appropriate to hoard jewels. Tolkien supports this—part of the problem with Feanor was his possessiveness of the Silmarils—but the Silmarils themselves served a purpose, a glorious purpose. And in your logic, jewels here on earth are a glimpse of a future glory. As such, can't we appreciate them as such? It seems to me that it all comes down to the way in which we venerate the jewels. Don't hide them or hoard them—a sentiment which I think rightly strikes you as unsavory—but present them in a way in which they can reflect that glory that they are a shadow of. If jewels are a glimpse of what Christ is like and what life in physical communion with Christ is like, then we should want to present them in a way which declares this. I'm not sure exactly what this would look like; perhaps some analog to the way the Silmarils were held before Morgoth seized them.<br /><br />DADAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13286020026192795817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-76499887060273715942014-05-16T11:44:16.712-07:002014-05-16T11:44:16.712-07:00Unless I've misunderstood, you seem to be rais...Unless I've misunderstood, you seem to be raising the interesting discussion of the appropriate role for jewels to play in our imperfect Earth, and I agree with your observation that mortals, elves, and some Valar such as Morgoth have a dangerous tendency to become dragon-like in their affection for jewels. <br /><br />However, your solution seems to be to reject the use of jewels wholesale despite any intrinsic value since only in heaven can they be "free from corruption". It seems this implies these jewels, fragments of Heaven, can be corrupted, which I don't believe to be the case. Further, the problem doesn't exist in jewels but rather in the fault of possessiveness which exists in everyone in Arda. Though this is a grave problem, perhaps there are virtues in these jewels which outweighs the danger and threat of this dragon-lust - even if that virtue is only a beauty reminiscent of Heaven. To preserve such a divine reflection, I would rather suffer whatever evil. The total rejection of jewels on Earth seems, therefore, to me a rather draconian and rash act.<br /><br />LDDAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16974875330005003185noreply@blogger.com