tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post4265045728310313807..comments2023-11-07T06:20:12.181-08:00Comments on Tolkien: Medieval and Modern: Atlantis and Atalantie "Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"http://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-23346357377121021942018-12-31T11:37:00.660-08:002018-12-31T11:37:00.660-08:00Hey Morgane! I know that this is like four years l...Hey Morgane! I know that this is like four years late! Perhaps we should not press the destruction of Numenor into the account of Noah's Flood too far. The fact that the destruction of Numenor was essentially limited to Numenor if I get the story right, says more about a parallel to Atlantis. Atlantis was a seafaring city-state consisting of ten districts or wards. The central power lay in the city of Atlantis itself, for it had the Temple of Poseidon. (did I spell that right?)The other districts were subject to Atlantis. It had the great harbor as well. An interesting thing: the layout of the harbor at Atlantis was very similar to the later great harbor of Carthage. And, the Carthaginians fled the Romans in their ships, being a 'Sea People'. They may have even fled as far as the eastern coast of South America. If I get the story of the Numenorians right, they too had survivors flee in ships. The destruction of Numenor fits the account of Atlantis quite well, in my unworthy opinion. I believe Atlantis was destroyed either before the final great cataclysm of Noah, or perhaps in that cataclysm. I now lean towards the before view. If you read Plato's 'Timaeus and Critias', you will see a very interesting parallel to Numenor. That's my opinion anyhow. The destruction of Atlantis did not involve the whole world. It was judged by Zeus. I do remember that the Athenians also suffered some of the destruction, if my memory serves me. Sorry for such a long windy word here. I'm a preacher and we do not know when to stop talking! Happy New Year and God Bless!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983323585131157574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-6508165539241583822018-12-30T21:09:52.660-08:002018-12-30T21:09:52.660-08:00Me again! I no longer define 'myth' as a f...Me again! I no longer define 'myth' as a fairy tale that has no basis in fact, I define 'myth' as something that has fallen so far back into the mist of time, that the facts are no longer extant. Myths can be false, that is true. But some events in history, in time and space, are so far back there, that 'Truth becomes Legend, and Legend becomes Myth'. I've read Plato's account of the Flood. Got a copy somewhere. Very interesting!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983323585131157574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-259771052749364722018-12-30T21:00:10.058-08:002018-12-30T21:00:10.058-08:00Since 'myth' does not always mean false, b...Since 'myth' does not always mean false, but lost in history, I wonder if Tolkien's dreams of a Great flood are not that strange memory all cultures seem to have of the event? I study the Flood, and all the many stories and legends that are found world-wide of an event so catastrophic that Humanity has the memory kind of 'hardwired' in us. His son also had the dreams? That IS interesting! I love the Lord of the Rings.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983323585131157574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-40988841320331550152014-06-06T21:05:57.068-07:002014-06-06T21:05:57.068-07:00Hope, this is a fascinating post that rehashes a l...Hope, this is a fascinating post that rehashes a lot of the tensions we've talked about in Tolkien between dreams and the creation of and propagation of myth. I've also been deeply interested in Tolkien's dream of the Great Wave, as he calls it, that is always foretold by the clouds rising up "like eagles" in the western sky. I think there's something important in the content of this dream that was never fully discussed in class, too: most importantly, the theme of submersion and rebirth, as the Fallen Númenoreans sink into the sea while the Faithful escape to a new life and new lands. I can't decide whether this is akin to a theme of original sin or not, though that also plays a central part in much of Tolkien's legendarium and is a constantly present tension in his stories. The way he applies a story of downfall and sin to explain the image and feeling of the wave in his dream, though, indicates to me that this downfall is linked in part to the idea of original sin, and is certainly meant to be a result of that sin. I'm struck by the (somewhat obvious) similarity of the dream and the downfall to the Biblical story of Noah and the Great Flood. In both stories, the sins of mankind (or some subset of mankind) cause their destruction through cleansing submersion through an act of God bring about a new age and a new goodness in surviving men. Is it then necessary for Númenor to fall in order for the rest of Men to be saved? And why, in opposition to the biblical story, are only the Númenoreans punished for their sins when all the unenlightened peoples of Middle-earth continue to worship Melkor? Are the Númenoreans' sins more worthy of Eru's wrath? The questions that the story of the Great Wave over Númenor bring up are centrally tied to the meaning that wave dream had for Tolkien, and the source of his anxiety about it. I'm just still puzzling through the answers to those questions... Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14547244851169151908noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-68097345351344339522014-04-21T20:44:18.616-07:002014-04-21T20:44:18.616-07:00In what sort of history do I need to prove it? Bec...In what sort of history do I need to prove it? Because as history is mythology, I think I could definitely come up with a middle earth (or even medieval map) that expounds on peoples beliefs or perceptions about the time that would do a great job of locating Atlantis! Hope https://www.blogger.com/profile/01134007388101173854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-43529124988484803922014-04-14T14:37:48.775-07:002014-04-14T14:37:48.775-07:00Thanks for the post, Hope.
I think you’re right a...Thanks for the post, Hope.<br /><br />I think you’re right about the centrality of this idea to Tolkien’s creative world, if not <i>The Lord of the Rings</i> in particular. This is a good explication of how he uses it as a device, but if the topic interests you, it strikes me that it would very much repay to look into what Tolkien intended to signify with the “downfall” of Númenor in his world.<br /><br />It not only is one of the Falls which echo through his history, but it relates in some ways to Plato’s discussion of Atlantis in <i>Timaeus</i> and <i>Critias</i> (c. 360 B.C.). One suspects that given Tolkien’s fondness for Homer he might have been happy to tie in some of the more southeasterly mythic world into his “northwestern.”<br /><br />Bill the Heliotrope<br /><br />P.S. Also if, as your project, you prove the existence and location of Atlantis, I will strongly lobby Professor Fulton Brown for at least a B+ for you…"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-24827479365616003452014-04-11T13:09:26.195-07:002014-04-11T13:09:26.195-07:00I was also struck by the many references to Atlant...I was also struck by the many references to Atlantis while reading the writings of Tolkien, and I definitely agree that this dream does become a part of Tolkien’s mythology through its many versions and reiterations. Not only does Tolkien use this dream to connect the characters in his mythology together, but it also connects to the mythology in our own primary world. The story of Atlantis for Tolkien evolved over time, and its remaining fragments became imbedded in our own mythology. In this way, Tolkien manages to connect his mythology to the primary reality, and begins to blur the line between these two worlds. This method of storytelling also adds another layer of depth to Tolkien’s writing, because the stories that he is telling could be the stories of our own past and history. We could almost imagine the story being passed down from father to son all the way into our own reality, like in The Lost Road, where stories are passed down from Oswin Errol to Alboin to Audoin. Atlantis is only one example of this extensive mythology being passed into the primary reality. These stories become a part of our world, just like when Sam in The Lord of the Rings asks, “Why, to think of it we’re in the same tale still! ... Don’t the great tales never end?” <br /><br />-S. P."Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.com