tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post4987172159040408798..comments2023-11-07T06:20:12.181-08:00Comments on Tolkien: Medieval and Modern: Monsters In the Context of Religion"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"http://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-72970672890641109382011-05-30T01:45:37.342-07:002011-05-30T01:45:37.342-07:00It's interesting to view monsters as pagan inf...It's interesting to view monsters as pagan influences within Tolkien's work, but I'm not sure if I wholly agree. I wonder if the distinction between pagan and Christian monsters must necessarily revolve around the idea of the fall. The idea of the fall as conceived by the bible is certainly present in the book, but I don't know if it is correct to ascribe a "pagan-ness" to the monsters which are not overtly fallen. <br /><br />In Tolkien's creation myth, Melkor's desire to dominate creation and have glory (in the biblical sense) leads to his fall. Because Malkor created all that was evil through the marring of an originally "good" creation, all evil being share in that original fall. Ungoliant was a fallen maiar who decided to take the shape of a spider, and was eventually bound to it. Rather than being completely opposed to the gods and creation, evil is always created through some sort of fall, or transformation in Tolkien's work. I recognize that the idea of giant spiders or dragons, may have been drawn from pagan mythology, but that doesn't make Tolkien's version of them pagan. Evil is inextricably linked to the fall in Tolkien's mythology. It seems to be a wholly Christian bestiary to me.<br /><br />-Nick Carter"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-75169351185963305432011-05-09T10:05:18.873-07:002011-05-09T10:05:18.873-07:00You are right that the monsters such as they are i...You are right that the monsters such as they are in the Legendarium are more European pagan than Christian. However, as monstrous as Ungoliant was, she seemed to be more like a force of nature (a black hole) than anything intentionally evil to be natural enemies of anyone—being more akin to Charybdis than Grendel. Ungoliant was what she was on the edges of the world in conflict with no one until roused and used as a malicious tool by Melkor. Unfortunately for him, he lost control of the tool and Ungoliant disappeared back into obscurity from whence she came. The valar made no effort to hunt her down, nor was she the target of the Noldor’s wrath. She was monstrous in the sense that her hunger was antithetical to existence, but she did not beget her own hunger and so is also quite animalistic. <br /><br />While Gollum, I think, is more of a Christian “monster,” the orcs are a special case. Gollum is corrupted, but yet also has the potential for redemption, not unlike a person possessed by a demon. There is an evil will, external to himself, interfering with his actions. Presumeably Gollum/Smeagol, like Frodo, would have been exorcised of Sauron's will when he ring was destroyed. Orcs, although corrupted elves or men, seem to be beyond redemption. Furthermore they can be killed without remorse in great numbers. They are not taken prisoner nor are they shown mercy or compassion. Instead the only cure for their permanent and immutable corruption is death. They are wholly physical, but at once more than animals and sub-human. They are also inherently evil, but not supernatural like demons. They are also almost resemble a pestilence like a swarm of locusts because of their seemingly inexhaustable numbers and single minded intent to destroy everything in their path. It isn’t a Christian theme and I can’t think of a Norse pagan corollary either. The orcs don't strike me simply as a countless horde of Grendels.<br /><br />-Jason A Banks"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-530693891058414842011-05-09T06:42:10.468-07:002011-05-09T06:42:10.468-07:00Excellent distinction between monsters inspired by...Excellent distinction between monsters inspired by Pagan mythology and monsters (or devils) inspired by Christianity (or, rather, Christian mythology) and the way in which they appear in Tolkien's stories. I think that you are exactly right to see this tension in the way in which Tolkien crafts his monsters/villains/devils: like the <i>Beowulf</i> poet, he is trying to have it both ways.<br /><br />RLFB"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-55669162421119924872011-05-08T12:07:02.564-07:002011-05-08T12:07:02.564-07:00I'm sorry that my comment above somehow lost t...I'm sorry that my comment above somehow lost the paragraph breaks. I copied and pasted out of a word file."Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-69548964531942469732011-05-08T12:06:21.650-07:002011-05-08T12:06:21.650-07:00I like how you make distinctions between different...I like how you make distinctions between different categories of monsters (like Shelob vs Gollum), as it is something that I’ve been thinking about as well. However, I slightly disagree with one of your points. You said that from our readings we have developed the idea that evil is the opposite of good, but I would argue that evil is even more that this: it is a deep-rooted feeling of malice towards good.<br /> I think, as you said, that this is what separates ‘beasts’ from monsters. The trolls in The Hobbit aren’t trying to eat Bilbo to torture him, they simply happen to eat hobbits. However, I also think that this definition of evil is also what separates Gollum from the other monsters in Tolkien’s mythology. Melkor, though he is a ‘fallen’ being as you pointed out, eventually develops malice towards the ‘good’ things that the Ainur create. He is continually breaking down everything the Ainur build up. Shelob and Ungoliant exhibit a similar malice in their desire to devour all created things, including light. Gollum, on the other hand, doesn’t seem to display this same caliber of malice. Yes, he admittedly is selfish, scheming, and deceitful, but he doesn’t want to destroy the good in the world, he simply wants his precious back.<br /> While I can’t say for certain that Shelob and Ungoliant were created by Iluvatar, they share an important characteristic with Melkor, Gollum, and even dragons. They are all beings endowed with intelligence. They have the foresight to understand the consequences of their outcomes and to have purpose and intent behind their actions. Essentially, they can all make a choice, to seek the light or to destroy it, and Gollum seems to be the only so called monster who chooses against destruction. <br /><br />SaTh"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.com