tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post5998814663264361380..comments2023-11-07T06:20:12.181-08:00Comments on Tolkien: Medieval and Modern: Are Orcs Monsters?"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"http://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-22837275022372588592011-06-01T21:54:34.228-07:002011-06-01T21:54:34.228-07:00If the orcs are a corruption of the elves, who wer...If the orcs are a corruption of the elves, who were made to have faith in Iluvatar, then the orcs are the opposite of the elves, and are therefore evil. If we bring in the discussion of the Numenorean breaking of the ban, what is important is not how we worship, since there are those who argue that human sacrifice would be acceptable if it were to Iluvatar, but to whom our worship is addressed.<br /><br />The Orcs, then, are by definition evil. They are diametrically opposed to the elves, and created by Melkor to serve him in war. They may have humanizing elements, but this does not make them good, since their ultimate purpose is for the cause of evil.<br /><br />Best,<br />KNS"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-52315832654103547252011-05-26T16:13:55.614-07:002011-05-26T16:13:55.614-07:00Whether orcs constitute Monsters or mere ("me...Whether orcs constitute Monsters or mere ("mere") evil hinges on the line between the Monstrous and the evil - something that was never fully delineated in class. However, the differing criteria you give in your post - driven by hunger/survival, personification of vice, and malice towards beauty and good - seem, on the whole, to indicate to me the absence of good rather than the rejection of it. So in response to your post, I ask the question - do the orcs actively reject good, or is such an absence in their nature? Unfortunately, I don't know that the question is fully answerable. We never see an orc given a true chance to become or act "good" in the trilogy. The formal explanation of the origin of orcs as twisted Elves seems to indicate a rejection of good - after all, not all Elves gave in to the forces of evil. However, surely all of the orcs we see cannot be twisted Elves. The creation of the Uruk-hai, through the breeding of Orcs and Men, seems to indicate that Orcs can reproduce organically. Even though Orcs are portrayed as possessing a humanoid or near-humanoid level of intelligence, can we truly give them the agency needed to become evil rather than Monstrous if they are born into such a nature? Interesting post. <br /><br />Taylor Ehlis"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-86595603312975737182011-05-10T08:47:28.716-07:002011-05-10T08:47:28.716-07:00Jason, you said that if it is pitiable, it is rede...Jason, you said that if it is pitiable, it is redeemable. I disagree quite strongly. Although we do not know precisely how the orcs were made from elves, we do know that they are corrupted and bred for a particular purpose. Why wouldn't Sauron have instilled his own malice and cruelty into their nature? Is what was done to them to make their natures thusly their fault?<br /><br />There was an experiment a short while ago where scientists discovered that by applying a strong magnet to certain parts of the brain significantly lowered their moral thresholds. People who normally abhorred violence became less troubled by it, or by the idea of hurting someone. Does this changing of their physical nature (their brain function) make them temporarily evil? What if someone were to be stuck like that? Are they now 'monstrous' in some fashion?<br /><br />I would say the Orcs, although intelligent, are more beastlike than anything. They might have particular skills but they are 100% slaves to their base impulses. I would almost say it seems genetic. I think monstrousness comes not from the actions or feelings of a person or entity, but from knowing better and willfully and eagerly engaging in hatred, malice, and destruction. <br /><br />I think that Saruman is one of the best examples. Treebeard says "A wizard should know better" and he certainly should. He was a good person once, but he fell under Sauron's thrall. True, part of this may have been because of the Palantir, just as Denethor fell into dispair by misjudging the things he saw within it. But Saruman is the head of the Wizards, Saruman the wise. With his wisdom, power, and intelligence, I cannot blame anyone but him for his fall to evil. Furthermore, he is given several choices to help the forces of good, to be redeemed and again and again he spitefully chooses evil. He even destroys the Shire out of no tactical purpose other than spite.<br /><br />I feel in order to be Monstrous, at some point, a person or entity must have been able to choose not to be. Morgoth, Sauron, Saruman: they all had the power to be forces for good, and yet refused.<br /><br />-Katie M.Katherinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14448851898587781146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-5149957791066751952011-05-09T10:22:26.682-07:002011-05-09T10:22:26.682-07:00By most accounts, I think orcs would be considered...By most accounts, I think orcs would be considered monsters. They are sub-human, cruel, sadistic, filthy, anarchic, and always in opposition to the hero. Of course, there is the matter of what kind of monsters they are. Lederer’s post “The Monsters and the monsters” is useful here. Orcs are usually (m)onsters insofar has they are rarely the arch-villains of the story—an exception would be the role of Azog in the war between the dwarves and the orcs.<br /><br />I’m not so sure that the orcs can be pitiable, at least not in the way Gollum can be pitied as a victim. The origins of the orcs are rather vague. They may or may not have been elves originally, but that was back in the 1st Age. Where the seeming endless supply of orcs in the 3rd Age are coming from is anyone’s guess. They can’t all be mutated elves, can they? I would hesitate to assume that the orcs share the same immortality as elves based on a reference to the siege of Mordor. Their knowledge of that event need not be from personal experience, but instead the orcs could tell each other stories about past events just as they tell stories about Shelob. <br /><br />In the end, orcs appear to be cruel and vicious because it is in their nature. Even Gandalf does not hesitate to deal out death in judgment regarding orcs, at least minimizing their casualties because they are pitiable pawns never comes up. There does not seem to be any rehab program to rehabilitate them into society. With or without Sauron, they would be prone to desire wanton destruction just for fun. <br /><br />Ultimately this is what makes a monster. If you can pity it, if it is redeemable, if its actions can be justified and reasoned, then it is no longer a monster to the one assigning it such status. It becomes a misguided soul or a victim of circumstance or almost human, anything but a monster. We made monsters of the Japanese soldiers in WWII (and they did the same to us). War propagandists on all sides excel at doing this. It makes it easier to kill those on the other side, because that is what we do with monsters. The whole point of destroying the ring was to kill Sauron. Can you imagine the Council of Elrond trying to see the world from Sauron’s point of view so that they could better march on Mordor to convince him of the error of his ways?<br /><br />This does raise the question of whether or not there are any true absolute monsters or if we invent them for our purposes.<br /><br />-Jason A Banks"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-27926698327770736612011-05-09T06:08:10.076-07:002011-05-09T06:08:10.076-07:00I think that you are right that the Orcs are not m...I think that you are right that the Orcs are not monsters in the sense that Grendel or the dragons are; perhaps they are slaves (as the previous post suggests)? It is interesting, given what we said about Monsters needing a Monster-slayer that the Orcs do not tend to have specific opponents. None of the Orcs whom we meet in person, as it were, are killed by anybody other than other Orcs. I am curious, however, how they can be evil and not monstrous, since what you say seems to suggest that we should pity more so than hate them.<br /><br />RLFB"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-30746797010429033662011-05-05T20:28:05.274-07:002011-05-05T20:28:05.274-07:00Upon reviewing my post I realized I got rather far...Upon reviewing my post I realized I got rather far off what I intended, but I liked the product enough to go ahead and publish it anyway. I assure everyone that this reflection really didn't start out as a defense of Orcs! <br /><br />I started delving into the Two Towers passages purely as a supplement to the class readings, but found there was enough material for a full 1200 words in those alone. (Indeed I cut an entire planned half post about whether Morgoth and Satan were monsters, anyone want to fight over it in the comments?) Sorry to my Istari if this theme wasn't close enough to the week's assignment.<br /><br />Also the title really ought to have a question mark in it. It appears I can never make a post without at least one error!<br /><br />David Gittin"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.com