tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post7006124698660817728..comments2023-11-07T06:20:12.181-08:00Comments on Tolkien: Medieval and Modern: Love and Death, Intertwined"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"http://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-53867560864131190142014-06-06T19:42:03.693-07:002014-06-06T19:42:03.693-07:00We have talked several times about the elf "g...We have talked several times about the elf "giving up the ultimate prize" here, but not the cost involved for the Man. Remember too that the Man is going to have to leave behind the Elf, something which is also a cost. That is one of the things which the movies actually do quite compellingly, balancing the decision-making so that the Man (Aragorn) internalizes the cost more than the Elf (Arwen) seems to, as he mourns her decision for her sake, despite his obviously great joy! The Elf is not just giving up the prize and the Man is not just winning the Elf's love...it is a tradeoff between growth and loss which, stepping out of the subcreation, is actually completely human. And this is one of the reasons why the “escape” of the Man is a gift…once you’ve already lost love, why live on forever? Better to treasure THAT ultimate prize of love—much greater than life!—for a short time.<br /><br />-H. A. K. Stone"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-80891503532758483922014-05-31T09:45:49.183-07:002014-05-31T09:45:49.183-07:00I agree with Hope in that an elf choosing to give ...I agree with Hope in that an elf choosing to give up what is considered the ultimate prize, immortality, is extremely romantic and one of the purest expressions of love. Perhaps Tolkien always chose to make the female part of the relationship an elf because of his love for his wife and he felt that a woman in any relationship was close to perfect in the eyes of the man. Just as we discussed in class, women are put on this pedestal in the eyes of the man, and when that woman is an elf she is more than perfect and just as Tolkien saw his wife Edith as Luthien, the men in the story who fall in love with elves will always see their counterparts as the most magnificent.<br />Likewise, a female elf choosing to give up immortality for a man closes this gap between them and lessens the elf’s perfect qualities somewhat. I agree that this is why the man to win the heart of the elf is always a hero in some way, because otherwise would he be worthy of winning the heart of an elf? I think we’d all love to think that a mortal men with little heroic background could win the heart of an elf, a perfect human being but if we’re being realistic the partner of an elf would most likely always be a hero in order to be worthy of that love.<br />- E.Q."Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-31267622057577276992014-05-28T09:24:16.564-07:002014-05-28T09:24:16.564-07:00I very much like the notion of prize/price you tap...I very much like the notion of prize/price you tap into here! It neatly collapses many of the things at stake in marriages between female elves and men—the female elf gives up immortality and her family life, which is a price, but also gains the gift of mortal death, a prize. Men are involved in some dangerous adventure and then rewarded with a “guiding star” (although, as we said in class, there is some agency of women in these adventures!). I also agree that there is some unresolved tension between the advice Tolkien gives his son and the light in which he views his Luthien!<br /><br />--Jenna<br />"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-54770918435491121582014-05-26T19:41:01.528-07:002014-05-26T19:41:01.528-07:00I think for Tolkien, the relationship between an e...I think for Tolkien, the relationship between an elf and mortal, and the love and death that go along with this, is the ultimate eucatastrophe. It is bittersweet, the purest expression of love. I still struggle though, do you think there are any relationships that are not idolatrous in the chivalrous way that Tolkien criticizes? <br />Sam--I'm also curious--how much do elves and men interact? It seems like in older days they interacted more, but there seemed to be such a divide between their species, not quite resentment but each was jealous of the other yet wanted to feel superior in a way. It also seemed that elves were more accepting of their fate, as Finrod seemed to accept it more.<br /><br />I also have a few questions that are tangentially related to the readings, but I'm curious what Tolkien would have thought of the Hobbit movie's addition of Tauriel. In this case its a female elf going after a male dwarf, but they still seem to fulfill the same roles as many of the female characters in Tolkien. Could Tolkien have ever envisioned a union between these two species--both who are great craftsmen? Hope https://www.blogger.com/profile/01134007388101173854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-8173281479908416342014-05-23T20:00:31.049-07:002014-05-23T20:00:31.049-07:00I think it is a good point that love of a mortal a...I think it is a good point that love of a mortal always means death for the elf. And this is always depicted in sorrowful terms. Elrond especially, in the story of Aragorn and Arwen, is very sad/angry that his daughter chooses to die. Perhaps his and Thingol’s cases can be explained by fatherly attachment to their daughters and not wanting to be parted, yet I still think this attitude is problematic in light of Finrod’s discussion with Andreth. Here, Finrod basically says that elves wish they could die and leave Arda because after a couple thousand years chilling in Mandos, you get kind of tired of the world. Both races seem to envy the other’s fate, so why don’t more elves marry humans? Luthien escaped from Arda, so if the elves were really as dissatisfied with their fate as they say they are, why don’t more follow her example? <br />(The only answer I can think of is that that would be kind of cheating, which is why Tolkien sets up so much cultural pressure for elves and men not to marry, and have it happen only in times of great importance.)<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08785268335534601524noreply@blogger.com