tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post7569670157632221402..comments2023-11-07T06:20:12.181-08:00Comments on Tolkien: Medieval and Modern: Family: Frodo and Sam as Parent/Child"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"http://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-78131085662807559292011-06-03T20:01:12.865-07:002011-06-03T20:01:12.865-07:00My apologies--I'm MoL, and I made the post abo...My apologies--I'm MoL, and I made the post above."Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-2653947842819531982011-06-03T19:56:22.724-07:002011-06-03T19:56:22.724-07:00I really enjoyed this essay, and I think it makes ...I really enjoyed this essay, and I think it makes a lot of insightful points regarding the relationship between Frodo and Sam. (I especially liked the final section about Frodo's departure.) One question I have: does Frodo undergo a "natural" (albeit much accelerated) progression from adulthood into the second childhood of old age, or an unnatural regression into the first childhood? It doesn't have to be an either/or question, and there seems to be support for both sides. The second childhood narrative fits Frodo's actions quite well: he grows old, departs from the world, and bequeaths his possessions to his child. It also makes more sense of Sam's attitudes towards Frodo. Despite having more ability and power than Frodo at the end, Sam is still deferential ("Mr Frodo! Mr Frodo!"*) in a way that would be odd for a parent towards a child, but which is not unusual as a form of filial respect. However, Frodo is directly compared several times in the text to a child, not a helplessly old man. This occurs most notably in the piggyback scene quoted above and when Sam finds Frodo at the Tower of Cirith Ungol: "...and [Frodo] lay back in Sam's gentle arms, closing his eyes, like a child at rest when night-fears are driven away by some loved voice" (VI.1).<br /><br />This sounds a bit quibbling, but I think the question is nontrivial because it examines the effects of the Ring. Does the quest for domination, as exemplified in the Ring, warp the quester such that their spirit dies long before their body departs the earth? Or is it, as Prof. Fulton notes above, a fundamentally childish (or regressive, childishness-inducing) venture?<br /><br />As a last quick note, Frodo and Sam are set up as the ideal Master and Servant, and it's interesting that those roles map so neatly onto Parent and Child. Perhaps this points to Tolkien's historical time, in which the Master/Servant bond was viewed with much more positivity than it is today, and ideally was a bond of familial closeness? Alternatively, what does it say about the role of the child?<br /><br />[*] Also interesting is that the only time Sam does not call Frodo "Mr" is when he thinks that Frodo has died. Perhaps in death we are all equal?"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-2648691391457313742011-06-01T14:17:35.184-07:002011-06-01T14:17:35.184-07:00Good point about the inverse relationship between ...Good point about the inverse relationship between Frodo’s strength and Sam’s; I hadn’t thought of it that way before! I wasn’t sure about the whole child/parent relationship initially, but the way you lay it out, it really does fit Sam and Frodo’s relationship, especially when mapped onto the child/parent relationship over the lifetime of the child. The physical weakening of Frodo strengthens this parallel, but I think the physically close relationship the two has also reminds one of parent and child: Sam holding Frodo’s hand after Frodo wakes up in Rivendell, Sam carrying Frodo into the Cracks of Doom. In each case, it seems like each of those actions is like that of a parent or child, at different times in their lives.<br /><br />I think you right that Frodo’s slow collapse (and temporary appearance of death) truly forces Sam to find and use the strength within him, and that this is often how we learn to grow up – through circumstances that force us to. I think “The Choices of Master Samwise” (my favorite part of the whole book, by the way) also emphasizes (as the title makes obvious and as we discussed previously in class) that the ability, and even necessity, of making choices (especially difficult ones) is part of what defines ‘growing up,’ part of what makes us ‘adult’ rather than ‘child.’<br /><br />You also make an excellent observation about the significance of Frodo departing from Middle Earth at the end of the book. Despite Frodo and Sam being part of the same generation, Sam becomes Frodo’s heir, thus taking up, in every role; the role Frodo’s children would have had if he’d had any. You note the line about Sam inheriting all that Frodo “might have had;” I think this particularly significant because Sam takes on a role in his family, in the Shire, and, in a way, in life, that Frodo might have had it not for the Ring.<br /><br />CourtneyCDKJacobsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15612608037267663825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-6837034239515752842011-05-26T18:16:22.781-07:002011-05-26T18:16:22.781-07:00The question about the Ring as an agent in this (v...The question about the Ring as an agent in this (very well-chronicled) transition between Child- and Parenthood is especially interesting when one considers what the Ring has done to its various "owners." Even as Gollum and Bilbo were granted extraordinary physical longevity, it was obviously not without cost. While Gollum and Bilbo were almost suspended in time thanks to the Ring, it became debilitating when closer to its original Master and seemed at times to sap the life from Frodo as he fought to maintain control. Frodo’s deteriorating condition, physically and mentally, reflects a strange kind of simultaneous aging and regression—both of which must result in Sam, the “Child” maturing and taking over. <br /><br />I was initially confused about whether you were suggesting a complete role-reversal, portraying Frodo as the child as Sam matures. With Frodo as the master, the officer, it seemed to me that both were progressing forwards: Frodo towards death, (completely skipping over his prime,) and Sam into complete maturity. But at the same time, the Ring has clearly disrupted Frodo’s “growth” in a devastating way. Upon further reflection, I realize that it does not necessarily need to be one or the other. Perhaps it is appropriate that Frodo’s transition into tainted weakness—constantly fueled by the Ring and its destructive influence—defies the aging process to which we are accustomed. <br /><br />-AS"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-15477478936611759412011-05-25T18:15:33.834-07:002011-05-25T18:15:33.834-07:00I think that you do an excellent job tracing out S...I think that you do an excellent job tracing out Sam's transformation from Child to Parent (particularly in the transition from Sam as leaping dog to Frodo as child carried piggy back), but what then does this suggest about the Ring as the agent (if it is an agent) of Frodo's regression from Parent to Child? Is Tolkien trying to say something about the desire for domination as being fundamentally childish? Or is it only in his physical and psychological weakness relative to Sam that we should see Frodo's "dematuration"? What do you think?<br /><br />RLFB"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.com