tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post8878766862691562575..comments2023-11-07T06:20:12.181-08:00Comments on Tolkien: Medieval and Modern: Can the music of creation be accurately described as a narrative?"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"http://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-33760389894972376552017-06-01T16:48:00.607-07:002017-06-01T16:48:00.607-07:00I'm interested in your main claim, that "...I'm interested in your main claim, that "the fundamental substance of creation- that is, the music- can be understood in narrative terms, as both song and story." As a musician, I found this creation story to be beautiful. The songs we listened to in class, specifically Smetana's "Homeland", clearly in my opinion evoked the images that were described in in the caption. I felt like I was back in a boat on the Vltava interacting with the nymphs and seeing giant castles emerge from the countryside. The recurring themes become characters in a story. It's no secret that music can evoke images of people and places from our past, and from these sites, it is not a huge jump to assume a narrative. Once you have characters, all you need is a plot. The temporal aspect of music can turn the interactions between themes into a plot. While I won't argue that everyone should view all pieces of music as narratives, this argument makes a lot of sense when looking at Tolkien's creation story.<br /><br />-AH"Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-46813452009801954372017-04-24T15:29:02.510-07:002017-04-24T15:29:02.510-07:00I think you are onto something about the necessity...I think you are onto something about the necessity of story in the way Tolkien imagines the music of the Ainur. Stories require plots and conflict in a way that songs of praise do not. Which then makes me wonder about the role of the angels' "Holy, holy, holy" in the Christian story: it is what the heavenly hosts sing to the LORD, but they are singing *about* the creation, not singing it into being. Somehow the music of the Ainur provides the pattern for the story of Arda, which is different. RLFB "Tolkien: Medieval and Modern"https://www.blogger.com/profile/04348913969813157482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-27788136627093637842017-04-24T09:42:52.371-07:002017-04-24T09:42:52.371-07:00The more we talk about Melkor's role in all th...The more we talk about Melkor's role in all this, the more I become convinced that the Ainulindale has to be a story - or at least, a progression. So much of Tolkien's philosophy is centered around motion - motion through history, motion in the form of language change, the central structure of the Lord of the Rings as a Journey. But the Ainulindale itself had no such motion until the discordance struck by Melkor's desire for power. I don't mean to comment on the particular theological relationship between Melkor and Eru, but just on the role Melkor played in transforming a static song into a progressing narrative. I suppose this doesn't have to mean that the Ainulindale became a story, but I think (like you said) that this ties nicely into Tolkien's writing in On Fairy Stories. <br /><br />I suppose we can't nail down Eru's intentions, and Tolkien may not have wanted us to. But the embodiment of the Ainulindale in the form of Ea - and the progression of this form over time - speaks to a necessary dualism that I think borders on equivalence. Which is another reason why I find your point about sub-creation compelling.<br /><br />Also, I appreciate the reference to Tool!<br /><br />-AJAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18303653342243211242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5746173806126403959.post-33600784858852312342017-04-23T20:51:36.264-07:002017-04-23T20:51:36.264-07:00I'm not sure to what extent Illuvatar can be t...I'm not sure to what extent Illuvatar can be thought of as a creator in the same vein as Tolkien. Presumably given his role in its mythology, Illuvatar is supposed to be a benevolent deity (especially given Tolkien's Christian background). Certainly Tolkien is trying to create a beautiful story, but I think Tolkien would agree that Illuvatar's motivations are more difficult to parse, just as theologians would say of God. As a result, Melkor's relationship to Illuvatar can be thought of in similar terms to that of Lucifer and his relationship to God, leading us to the problem of evil (i.e. if God is just why is there evil in the world). One possible formulation to solve this problem (and which you seem to be moving towards by placing Illuvatar and Tolkien on similar footing with respect to crafting a beautiful story) is that evil must necessarily exist in order for good to have meaning. In this sense, one could think that while Illuvatar anticipated Melkor's fall, he also knew that evil was an inevitability within Ea and that Melkor would simply become another force to create a better and more beautiful world. In this sense Illuvatar and Tolkien can certainly be compared, and to some extent it even makes sense to draw the parallel.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17565149335882292953noreply@blogger.com